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ADSB 472 (Read 4609 times)
Jun 28th, 2017 at 10:03am

jethound   Offline
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I have installed the new ADS-B 472 and have several questions.
One the targets seem to disappear.  So what are the parameters for the ADS-B to display traffic.  On downwind.  with another RV on the runway showing up on the foreflight with his ADS-B.  I do not see Him? 

15 miles from the airport same guy is shooting a GPS approach to Runway 16 at KJZP   We are 2400 feet higher and he never shows on the Dynon  but is constantly there on the Stratus.

Other times we have aircraft pop up then disappear.  all the time we have ADS-B OK   
How can it be oK when I don't see the aircraft anymore.  Then they show up again ?
Why can we not have our own options in setup to select see everything or limit it.  I would personally love to see everything just like my IPAD does with foreflight and a Stratus 2.  I am use to seeing it all since we use the same set up on our corporate jets.  I am sure guys doing oxygen and 270 knots would like to see everything and not have Dynon preselect it

Thanks
Jack Hunt

 
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Reply #1 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 2:14pm

rvator51   Offline
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Skyview doesnt show the targets that are 15 or more miles away and  over 5000 ft above or below your aircraft to limit the clutter on the screen.  I actually like it and it matches my foreflight since I turn off the "show distant traffic" option on foreflight.  Here in the Phoenix area, there is just too much distant traffic showing and it really can clutter up my 7" display.  That said, it would be nice to have an option to turn on or off distant traffic.
 
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Reply #2 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 6:16pm

jethound   Offline
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Yes I have a great understanding of the ADS-B and its limits.  We continued closer to the airport and never picked up the traffic even though he has ADS-B and the Stratus showed him up with His N number.  We know this fellow also.  Never showed up on the Dynon even when in the pattern only 1000 feet above him and he was on the ground.  The Stratus and Foreflight still show ground targets in Brown. 

The options to turn on the limits or shut them off would be great.  You could also have a filter at 25-50 miles or unlimited  or an altitude limit 5 thousand above and below or unlimited. 

I have a great time with my wife watching the airliners go over on the foreflight but never see them on the Dynon except when transversing the Atlanta Class B.

Still the problem is not painting targets solidly and having them come and go even within a 10 mile distance and within 1000 feet of the altitude.  All the times the Dynon states ADS B Ok and if you check the ADSB page it is receiving information.  I figure if Stratus can paint them inside the aircraft with a stuck on ADSB antenna.  My ADSB 472 should paint them with a blade antenna.  I have the entire FAA report and my system passes their criteria with no faults. 

I wish I could remember how to take screen shots. 
I am not complaining.  I am ever so grateful for the dynon equipment and what it is capable of doing.  I just want it to work as I believe it is capable of.

Jack
 
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Reply #3 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 6:28pm

TomK   Offline
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jethound wrote on Jun 28th, 2017 at 6:16pm:
I wish I could remember how to take screen shots. 

Push & hold buttons 2 and 7 with a flash drive in USB port ...
 
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Reply #4 - Jun 29th, 2017 at 5:11am

jethound   Offline
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Thanks you.
 
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Reply #5 - Jun 29th, 2017 at 12:23pm

RayInGA   Offline
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This would make a nice sticky (hint).

From my cheat sheet:

Installation Guide REV AA

Button 1: Hold to shut down or hold to turn on Skyview - page 3-7
Buttons 1,2,5: Press all together to reboot Skyview - page 3-8
Buttons 2,7: Press together for Screenshot - page 21-2
Buttons 7,8: Hold to enter setup menu. - page 3-9
 

Ray Eaker
RV-7A flying since 27 Jan 2017
Dual Skyview 1000T with all available Dynon VFR goodies
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Reply #6 - Jun 29th, 2017 at 12:25pm

HomeBuilt101   Offline
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Ray,

This is very helpful...THANKS!!!
 
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Reply #7 - Jun 29th, 2017 at 4:18pm

GalinHdz   Offline
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RayInGA wrote on Jun 29th, 2017 at 12:23pm:
This would make a nice sticky (hint).

From my cheat sheet:

Installation Guide REV AA

Button 1: Hold to shut down or hold to turn on Skyview - page 3-7
Buttons 1,2,5: Press all together to reboot Skyview - page 3-8
Buttons 2,7: Press together for Screenshot - page 21-2
Buttons 7,8: Hold to enter setup menu. - page 3-9

Knowing that if the display needs rebooting in flight it will happen at the worst possible moment and I won't remember the sequence, I went one step further. Using a label maker with white on clear tape I printed REBOOT 1-2-5 and placed it just below the display buttons. Always instantly available. You can see the label(s) in this photo:

...

Cool
« Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2017 at 7:03pm by GalinHdz »  

N819PR
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Reply #8 - Jun 30th, 2017 at 8:32pm

dwightsmall   Offline
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I have the same issues as jethound. Traffic disappears a lot. I've installed the 472 dual band and those issues remain. A couple of days ago I switched to a 978 antenna and changed the coax just in case. Today I flew a second round trip  test flight between Tucson and Phoenix. I  had 99.9  ADSB OK but did have two brief events where it reverted to "TIS OK" and when that happened/happens the ADSB targets disappear. I've worked very hard to trouble shoot this and I'm beginning to think that this lapse may occur when my receiver switches from one ADSB tower to another.  This lapse always occurs in nearly the same place which is about midway between Phoenix and Tucson.  It has happened other places too but not with any pattern or regularity.  The jury is still out but I've made two flights with the new 978 rod antenna and it seems to be better. Today I had ADSB OK all the way to touchdown.  I have also flown tests with another 1090ES dual band airplane. He has a Grand Rapids installation. We were within 7-10 miles of each other and could not "see" each other. That was disappointing because we should be able to see each other via 1090 direct, airplane-to-airplane. I also went to setup in flight (buttons 7&8) and checked the setup>ports>port 1 which is the port that the 472 uses. I noticed that I was accumulating about 1 "sentence error" every couple of seconds. The ration of sentence errors to "good sentences" is low and one of the Dynon employees has said that that shouldn't be a problem.  Like jethound I want the system to work as close to perfectly as possible.
 
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Reply #9 - Jul 3rd, 2017 at 8:17am

Dynon Avionics   Offline
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So seeing occasional TIS OK, even in good ADS-B coverage areas, isn't super unexpected, as it's is the second highest priority traffic mode after ADS-B OK. To have ADS-B OK, you need to have ADS-B ground station coverage, and the ADS-B system needs to also think that there is radar coverage. This is usually the case, but if you lose the ground station, or if the system isn't reporting radar coverage, you'll drop down to the next most trustworthy source. If you're in a TIS-A coverage area, TIS-A is a portrait of traffic directed to your aicraft that are the most relevant targets as the TIS-A/radar system determines, and this is judged to be more trustworthy than partial ADS-B that may be missing aircraft.

dwightsmall - is your installation a completely new one or a -470 to -472 upgrade?

All of that said, we're seeing enough reports about traffic issues with the SV-ADSB-472 that we're doing a deeper dive to see if there's anything systemically going on here.
« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2017 at 8:17am by Dynon Avionics »  

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Reply #10 - Jul 3rd, 2017 at 12:18pm

N214ST   Offline
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Hey GalinHdz, I think you need another display in your cockpit!   Grin Wink
« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2017 at 12:19pm by N214ST »  
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Reply #11 - Jul 3rd, 2017 at 5:58pm

kurt Rutkowski   Offline
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Dynon,

I also recently upgraded my ADS from the 470 to the 472 and notice traffic blinking on/off the display.  I never noticed this with the ADS470 so I feel it is related to the above posts.  I am planning on flying to Oshkosh later this month and will get a lot of flight time to experience this.  If you need any specific screen shots or data dumps let me know and I will attempt to supplement your data.

SV1000T, SV 261 Transponder, ADS472, GNS430W.
 
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Reply #12 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 8:25pm

George K   Offline
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My traffic ADSB reception definitely got worse with the switch from 470 to 472. Stratus traffic keeps working well as in the past, receiving 2+ towers Without additional antenna. Skyview repeatedly switches to TISB or NO RADAR (20 miles from major Class B with tons of radar), fails to paint traffic in range, often intermittently, even at high altitude with 6 towers receiving on Stratus.  have diag file.  Now I'm militant about Stratus iPad and chargers.

Can I have my 470 back and my downgrade money?  Or FIRM ASAP timeline for fix even with your backlog such as user documentation version 15 manuals?
« Last Edit: Jul 5th, 2017 at 8:45pm by George K »  

Glide
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Reply #13 - Jul 8th, 2017 at 5:47am

dwightsmall   Offline
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I upgraded 470 to 472 and installed 978 antenna. I am on a trip now having flown from Tucson to South Dakota. ADSB OK coverage seems better than last year but does drop to TIS, usually for only a few seconds, when I don't think it should such as in or near Class C airspace, i.e., Omaha. A few times it went, for short periods, to ADSB NO RADAR when I'm pretty sure i was in radar coverage and altitude areas. I suspect that some interruptions may have occurred when my Dynon was leaving one ADSB tower's jurisdiction and entering another's. Overall the ADSB OK status was good so I'll estimate it at 95% in areas and at altitudes where coverage could reasonably be expected.  I haven't yet determined if I've observed any 1090 traffic (airplane to airplane direct). If I understand the system correctly, I think I would need to be in a non radar area/below radar to make this determination.
 
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Reply #14 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 1:28pm

jethound   Offline
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Thanks for working on this.  I understand that you can still get into areas at a low enough altitude that the ADS-B does not pick up.  But like I stated, it is when I am at 9000 feet ATL MCN CHS  a good route where there are a bizillion ADS-B transmitters and were still getting dropped planes on the display.  The whole kicker is that Foreflight stratus is dead solid all the time on traffic in the vicinity of my plane.

I though it was the coax.  I ran a new run of coax but still works the same. 
The transponder hits on flightplan.com are consistent and show that My plane is getting hit by ADS-B center tracking all the time. It shows the centers and the time intervals.

Thanks for working on the problem.
Jack
 
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Reply #15 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 1:31pm

jethound   Offline
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We will be headed to Oshkosh on Friday the 21st.  hope some of you guys make it over to homebuilt camping.

Jack
Hospitality greeter.
N507H
 
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Reply #16 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 4:19pm

Dynon Avionics   Offline
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For those of you experiencing issues with the SV-ADSB-472 - what antenna are you using?
 

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Phone: 425-402-0433 (7am-5pm Pacific weekdays)
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Reply #17 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 8:07pm

Alexe   Offline
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Dynon - I'm using the stock antenna that came with the ADSB470 as supplied by Van's for the RV-12.
Alex
 
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Reply #18 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 8:33pm

Steve W.   Offline
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Dynon Avionics wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 4:19pm:
For those of you experiencing issues with the SV-ADSB-472 - what antenna are you using?


TED transponder antenna.  Have seen momentary drop-outs, but haven't been  paying enough attention to characterize them (other than they're happening in airspace that is WELL covered by radar and ADS ground stations....greater L.A. area).
 
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Reply #19 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 4:42am

George K   Offline
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The same antenna that worked just fine with the 470 - looks the same as transponder's
 

Glide
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Reply #20 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 11:50am

kurt Rutkowski   Offline
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I am using the TED antenna for my ADS 472.   I notice lower performance with the ADS 472 vs. ADS 470.   I see traffic blank in and out often.  Also, see screenshot of the full USA weather with a lot of holes in coverage.  Looks like the receiver is loosing lock and dropping data.  This was an 1 hour flight in the Ft. Worth, Texas area all at 4500 feet.  Should have great ADS B coverage.
 
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Reply #21 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 6:34am

GalinHdz   Offline
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I just did a trip between St. Augustine, FL and Fayetteville NC between 7,000 and 8,000ft and noticed the same issue with my recently installed 472. I had never noticed this with the 470 before, but then again I wasn't really looking until I started reading this thread. Except for the mounting bracket and the 472 unit, I used the same wiring, cables and antenna used by the 470 since 2013.

FWIW I am using the Advanced Aircraft Electronics High Gain (L2) Transponder Antenna in my fiberglass airplane.

...

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/antennasystems1.php?clickkey=4083

Cool
« Last Edit: Jul 16th, 2017 at 12:59pm by GalinHdz »  

N819PR
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Reply #22 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:16am

Andy Karmy   Offline
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I'm having the same sort of coverage issues. Antenna is the DeltaPop UAT antenna.

http://www.deltapopaviation.com/UAT_Antenna.html
 
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Reply #23 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:36am

mitch757   Offline
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After upgrading to the -472 on my RV-12, I also get traffic drop outs even at very close range.  The antenna is the one supplied with the RV12.

Also the weather is slower to appear and has some dropout or holes in the depiction.

My Skyview  is running v15.2.

« Last Edit: Jul 17th, 2017 at 5:37am by mitch757 »  
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Reply #24 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 7:46am

GaryK   Offline
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I know Dynon said they are looking into it but if this continues I would really like to get my 470 back until the problem is resolved.

The 470 was much more consist. I fly from GRR in MI to ARB on a regular basis. Never lost ADSB in 2 years flying with the 470. the 472 is very inconsistent, several times in a 40 minute flight the ADSB drops out.

Would really like to get an update from Dynon..

Thanks
Gary
 
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Reply #25 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 9:36am

TurboPilot   Offline
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When the 472 was first released there was a discussion here about the potential for transponder interference given the 472 now includes 1090 and the 470 does not.

I wonder if the 472 is more sensitive to this problem?
 
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Reply #26 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 10:54am

RayInGA   Offline
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wmince wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:11am:
Who is the contracting manufactuter that fabricates the 472 for Dynon?


The internals source is marked on the label.

http://www.dynonavionics.com/adsb-dual-band-receiver-472.php
 

Ray Eaker
RV-7A flying since 27 Jan 2017
Dual Skyview 1000T with all available Dynon VFR goodies
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Reply #27 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 11:12am

wmince   Offline
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wmince wrote on Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:11am:
Who is the contracting manufactuter that fabricates the 472 for Dynon?

Answer:  uAvionics

Next question:  Who was the manufacturer of the outdated 470?
 
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Reply #28 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 10:45am

Ed Meyer   Offline
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I too seem to be having issues with the ADS-B 472. Twice recently I have been in the pattern at my home airport which is outside of ADS-B ground transmission coverage, and airplanes that were following me in the pattern did not show up but, after landing and taxiing on the parallel taxiway, then they did show while on final and on the runway. The first time was a small airplane and I don't know if it was ADS-B out on 978 or 1090. The second time was a bigger high performance airplane which would have been 1090 since it operates at the flight levels. I have the Ted UAT antenna.
 
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Reply #29 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 12:05pm

dwightsmall   Offline
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I recently installed the Dynon 978 antenna.   Perhaps just a wee bit better but jury is stiii out.
 
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Reply #30 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 1:31pm

RayInGA   Offline
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Ed Meyer wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 10:45am:
The first time was a small airplane and I don't know if it was ADS-B out on 978 or 1090. 


If they have OUT, their tail number will show under the target.
 

Ray Eaker
RV-7A flying since 27 Jan 2017
Dual Skyview 1000T with all available Dynon VFR goodies
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Reply #31 - Jul 21st, 2017 at 8:36am

GalinHdz   Offline
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Also, I only see ADS-B weather with the FltPlanGo App (no traffic) if I use <CUSTOM - PORT 4000> as the ADS-B input not the DYNON selection. Weather displays fine but absolutely no traffic even though I am seeing traffic on my SkyView display. When I connect to a STRATUX receiver everything displays correctly.

Huh

« Last Edit: Jul 21st, 2017 at 8:36am by GalinHdz »  

N819PR
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Reply #32 - Jul 21st, 2017 at 4:31pm

Dynon Avionics   Offline
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We think there might be a bug with traffic output. We're looking into it.
 

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Reply #33 - Aug 6th, 2017 at 10:59am

Craig Bennett   Offline
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Any update on this?  Any guidance you can give re: the likely hood that any problem would be corrected via a Skyview software update versus a non software change to the 472 box?

I'm installing the 472 as we speak and would love to avoid pulling it back out for an update.

Thanks!
Craig

 
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Reply #34 - Aug 7th, 2017 at 8:27am

N214ST   Offline
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Was told by Dynon at Oshkosh they hope it is a software update, but it may take a while to figure out.  In the meantime, they have suspended sale of the 472 in case they need to make a hardware fix.  I too hope it is a software fix as I have to pull my entire panel out to access the box.  About 2 hours of work, and then my plane is grounded until i get a replacement box because it is too much trouble to reinstall the panel, then remove again.  Fingers crossed!
 
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Reply #35 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 7:01am

airguy   Offline
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N214ST wrote on Aug 7th, 2017 at 8:27am:
Was told by Dynon at Oshkosh they hope it is a software update, but it may take a while to figure out.  In the meantime, they have suspended sale of the 472 in case they need to make a hardware fix.  I too hope it is a software fix as I have to pull my entire panel out to access the box.  About 2 hours of work, and then my plane is grounded until i get a replacement box because it is too much trouble to reinstall the panel, then remove again.  Fingers crossed!


The online Dynon store says it's "Out Of Stock"....

Dynon - care to comment on this? Anything you can share at this time?
 
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Reply #36 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 4:28pm

Dynon Avionics   Offline
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We're still working the issues - we don't have an update to report yet though.
 

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Reply #37 - Aug 10th, 2017 at 6:40am

jacktunnell   Offline
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I assume that those of us on the waiting list for a 472 are now on hold until this is resolved.

I'm also using an AAE - L2 antenna and receiving fine with my 470.
 
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Reply #38 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 2:39pm

dwightsmall   Offline
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I was one of the first to install the -472 and now have about 35  hours with the new receiver.  I was still getting dropped traffic and the display occasionally reverted for short periods to TIS OK so I now have taken extra steps to optimize the system.  I installed the Dynon 978 rod antenna and I located it at a point  2' forward of the tail wheel.  It was previously located just forward of the landing gear and just aft of the engine. I then moved the xponder antenna from forward of the tail wheel to just forward of the main gear (I swapped the two antenna's positions).  I made this change because I read in AOPA that Alaska pilots have found that ADSB antennas work better if located near the tail on tube and fabric airplanes.  I have made 3 flights now in this configuration and it works better.   It still occasionally reverts to TIS OK but only for very brief periods none of which have been more than 8-9 seconds and most are only 1 or 2 seconds and, most importantly, it has not dropped any displayed traffic.
 
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Reply #39 - Aug 15th, 2017 at 6:35am

N214ST   Offline
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Anyone having issues with ADS-B weather with the 472?  My original 470 seemed to work well; however, installed the 472 and flew the aircraft on first 472 flight from NC to FL last Monday.  Flew VFR, but the weather was pretty bad.  Didn't see any traffic, but with the bad weather, was not too surprised; cannot report on any traffic issues.  What was of concern was observing obvious nearby thunder storms west of  track, but no depiction showing on the weather overlay.  Any 472 weather experience from anyone?
 
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Reply #40 - Aug 15th, 2017 at 9:09am

Andy Karmy   Offline
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Here's more data on a 472 flight. I flew about an hour last night in the Seattle area. For the benefit of Dynon collecting data. I left Crest, went south of Thun, circled around the Enumclaw area and returned Crest. Flight was between 1500 - 2500 ft. The entire time it stayed on TIS. a couple of times I flipped over to the ADSB screen and was showing between 2 - 3 towers in range, no problems reported, but never would come online. I did have TIS traffic targets displayed, but no weather.
 
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Reply #41 - Aug 15th, 2017 at 5:40pm

Dynon Avionics   Offline
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N214ST - were you seeing the characteristic "purpleish" overlay on the map that depicts areas where weather wasn't being received?
 

Please do not use Private Messaging on form to contact. For private support:
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Reply #42 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 7:19am

N214ST   Offline
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Dynon Support - Had placed my earlier comment in 1st person, but it was actually the owner of the plane manufacturer company that was flying my plane.  Talked to him this morning and he did not remember seeing any purple overlay, however, he will go up later today and check again.  There is enough weather around FL he should be able to see something.  Will report back.
 
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Reply #43 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 12:40pm

dwightsmall   Offline
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N214ST mentioned not getting weather to show after installing the -472.  I got good weather overlay depiction with the -470 and just as good with the -472.
 
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Reply #44 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 3:26pm

Alexe   Offline
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I'm getting real frustrated with the poor performance of the -472. Could Dynon please provide some current status on resolving the traffic drop-out issue (other than "we are looking at it")?
 
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Reply #45 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 7:16pm

GaryK   Offline
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Dynon,
I'm a big supported of your equipment but the 472 is a problem. How can I go about getting 470 back until you guys work out the issues. Like others I am loosing ADSB coverage and radar, screen goes pink or pink broken lines. I never had this issue with the 470.

Really would like to get a 470 installed.

Gary Kremers
 
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Reply #46 - Aug 20th, 2017 at 5:45am

mitch757   Offline
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I'm experiencing the same as GaryK.  Would really like to get this thing fixed of my -470 back..
 
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Reply #47 - Aug 20th, 2017 at 9:15am

dwightsmall   Offline
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Not to be contrarian but I'm getting good results with the -472 now that I've relocated the antenna to 2' forward of the tailwheel.  At the same time I changed to the 978 rod antenna.   I've flown 4 flights in the Tucson/Phoenix corridor where I've had issues previously with the -470 and the -472 but now the result is good.   I still get occasional momentary reversions to "TIS OK" but I believe that I'm not losing any traffic displays.  It's still way too early to declare victory but I'll continue testing it and will post my findings.
 
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Reply #48 - Aug 21st, 2017 at 3:58pm

Dynon Avionics   Offline
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Radio issues are tricky, but we're getting closer to a solution here. We'll definitely have a software update, but we may need to do a hardware change too. That's still to be determined but is likely to be the case. We think we're weeks away but aren't close enough to predict a date yet. We don't have an interim solution (-470s) available. Thanks for your patience while we get to the bottom of this.
 

Please do not use Private Messaging on form to contact. For private support:
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Reply #49 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 6:04am

airguy   Offline
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Dynon Avionics wrote on Aug 21st, 2017 at 3:58pm:
Radio issues are tricky, but we're getting closer to a solution here. We'll definitely have a software update, but we may need to do a hardware change too. That's still to be determined but is likely to be the case. We think we're weeks away but aren't close enough to predict a date yet. We don't have an interim solution (-470s) available. Thanks for your patience while we get to the bottom of this.


I understand that the possible hardware solution is still in play - but will it be possible to ship the upgraded 472 to current 472 users and we can ship the old one back, so we don't have to fly without ADSB at all during the interim?

And while we're at it - THANK YOU  for listening to your users, believing that the complaints were legitimate enough to investigate, admitting that there really is an issue, and moving this quickly to implement a solution! I know of no other avionics company that does this, this quickly, this transparently.
« Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2017 at 6:06am by airguy »  
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Reply #50 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 8:49am

George K   Offline
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I asked for my 470 back too a while ago - why not give them back??
I know you're trying, but wouldn't the really defective 472 product warrant a much more urgent response? In effect you're indicating a product recall. Might legal customer complaint letters help to escalate the issue?
« Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2017 at 9:47am by George K »  

Glide
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Reply #51 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 10:20am

RayInGA   Offline
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George K wrote on Aug 22nd, 2017 at 8:49am:
I know you're trying, but wouldn't the really defective 472 product warrant a much more urgent response? In effect you're indicating a product recall. Might legal customer complaint letters help to escalate the issue?


Define "urgent." (rhetorical) It means different things to different people and to a company that supports lots of products and thousands of users.

With any software or hardware issue, it cannot be fixed if it cannot be reproduced with controlled configurations and methods. This takes time to gather information from users that experience the issue.

In this case, Dynon must work with a 3rd party uAvionics to get to a root cause and fix, which might add to the time frame.
 

Ray Eaker
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Reply #52 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 11:41am

TurboPilot   Offline
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RayInGA wrote on Aug 22nd, 2017 at 10:20am:
Define "urgent." (rhetorical) It means different things to different people and to a company that supports lots of products and thousands of users.

With any software or hardware issue, it cannot be fixed if it cannot be reproduced with controlled configurations and methods. This takes time to gather information from users that experience the issue.

In this case, Dynon must work with a 3rd party uAvionics to get to a root cause and fix, which might add to the time frame.


True. I am a big supporter of Dynon. A real spunky company given the strength of big "G".

But, one must ask who the hell is doing the beta testing for this product (and some of the software updates)?

The 472 is so easy to swap for the 470 there should have been some open beta testing where owners could give input on the forum about their experience and swap back to 470 when they had problems.
 
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Reply #53 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 5:41pm

Craig Bennett   Offline
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True. I am a big supporter of Dynon. A real spunky company given the strength of big "G".

But, one must ask who the hell is doing the beta testing for this product (and some of the software updates)?

The 472 is so easy to swap for the 470 there should have been some open beta testing where owners could give input on the forum about their experience and swap back to 470 when they had problems. [/quote]

Working in QA in the software industry I would tend to wonder if Dynon is rushing some products to market with in adequate testing.

They tend to be stuck between a rock and a hard place since all they have heard for a LONG time is "where's a dual band ADS-B module?"

But I'm sure they feel as we do that nothing should be rushed to market w/o proper testing.

And of course none of us could fly before we had on board weather.  😉
 
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Reply #54 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 6:30pm

Dynon Avionics   Offline
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Different airframe and antenna combination seem to perform differently, and so we didn't see some of the performance problems that we're seeing in the wider fleet in our smaller beta pool, unfortunately. Doing a wider public beta is hard for us because to do something like that we end up needing to spool up production to closer to production levels. That gets tough -
while we're big enough to buy parts in volume when we take things into full production, doing things in low-medium quantities is a lot harder than doing them in engineering/R&D quantities. We're not perfect, and changing our approach in the future is something we'll look hard at.

There are few reasons that we haven't offered -470s back so far. We initially thought that we'd have a software fix, but now that's looking less likely. Also, in either case, the logistics get tricky, especially if we'll be doing another swap shortly thereafter. We're at the point now where we expect some testing in the next week or so to reveal our plan forward. If that doesn't yield a -472 that fixes the issues we're seeing, we'll likely spool something up along the lines of unwinding the upgrades for those that don't want to wait. Note that we don't have any new -470s available - they're fully out of production at this point.
 

Please do not use Private Messaging on form to contact. For private support:
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Reply #55 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:53am

N214ST   Offline
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Guys... I work in an industry where we test the crap out of product and we still see systemic issues down the road because we can't predict and/or test every scenario.  It has only been a few months since we started seeing documented problems.  Although I myself want a fix sooner rather than later, I think Dynon is doing a good job troubleshooting the problem in a timely manner.  Electronic issues, especially radio frequency transmission and reception, can be very complex to troubleshoot.  Chill a bit Smiley.  As Craig mentioned, how in the world did we ever fly before ADS-B Tongue????? Use your eyes and flight following a bit more until Dynon gets this fixed
 
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Reply #56 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 12:43pm

TurboPilot   Offline
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N214ST wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:53am:
Guys... I work in an industry where we test the crap out of product and we still see systemic issues down the road because we can't predict and/or test every scenario.  It has only been a few months since we started seeing documented problems.  Although I myself want a fix sooner rather than later, I think Dynon is doing a good job troubleshooting the problem in a timely manner.  Electronic issues, especially radio frequency transmission and reception, can be very complex to troubleshoot.  Chill a bit Smiley.  As Craig mentioned, how in the world did we ever fly before ADS-B Tongue????? Use your eyes and flight following a bit more until Dynon gets this fixed


My point is that much of this equipment is operating in experimental aircraft by folks who love to tinker and experiment. Whether a software update or a new piece of hardware I am guessing there are a bunch of guys who would be glad to test provided they could easily roll back in the event of problems.

I would have been happy to test the 472 as long as Dynon did not take my 470 back until things looked good to go.
 
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Reply #57 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 1:10pm

wmince   Offline
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N214ST wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:53am:
Guys... I work in an industry where we test the crap out of product and we still see systemic issues down the road because we can't predict and/or test every scenario.  It has only been a few months since we started seeing documented problems.  Although I myself want a fix sooner rather than later, I think Dynon is doing a good job troubleshooting the problem in a timely manner.  Electronic issues, especially radio frequency transmission and reception, can be very complex to troubleshoot.  Chill a bit Smiley.  As Craig mentioned, how in the world did we ever fly before ADS-B Tongue????? Use your eyes and flight following a bit more until Dynon gets this fixed

Concur totally. Cool
« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2017 at 1:10pm by wmince »  
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Reply #58 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 1:36pm

GalinHdz   Offline
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N214ST wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 10:53am:
Guys... I work in an industry where we test the crap out of product and we still see systemic issues down the road because we can't predict and/or test every scenario.  It has only been a few months since we started seeing documented problems.  Although I myself want a fix sooner rather than later, I think Dynon is doing a good job troubleshooting the problem in a timely manner.  Electronic issues, especially radio frequency transmission and reception, can be very complex to troubleshoot.  Chill a bit Smiley.  As Craig mentioned, how in the world did we ever fly before ADS-B Tongue????? Use your eyes and flight following a bit more until Dynon gets this fixed

I completely agree!

...
« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2017 at 1:37pm by GalinHdz »  

N819PR
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Reply #59 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 2:59pm

dwightsmall   Offline
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Guys... I work in an industry where we test the crap out of product and we still see systemic issues down the road because we can't predict and/or test every scenario.  It has only been a few months since we started seeing documented problems.  Although I myself want a fix sooner rather than later, I think Dynon is doing a good job troubleshooting the problem in a timely manner.  Electronic issues, especially radio frequency transmission and reception, can be very complex to troubleshoot.  Chill a bit Smiley.  As Craig mentioned, how in the world did we ever fly before ADS-B Tongue????? Use your eyes and flight following a bit more until Dynon gets this fixed


I agree 100%.   Dynon is and has been very responsive to the issues with the -472.  They will get it sorted out soon so let's give them a little time and space.   Smiley
 
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Reply #60 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 4:47pm

jakej   Offline
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Spot on!!

Now .. All I gotta do is stop people asking for more 'features'  Roll Eyes as it's obvious from other posts on the forums that many don't bother to, or haven't read, the 573 page Install Manual - more features means more pages  Sad

« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2017 at 4:48pm by jakej »  
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Reply #61 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 5:54pm

wmince   Offline
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At 2,976 views, this thread has drawn tremendous attention
 
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Reply #62 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 6:44pm

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One observation. I just flew the new Scout Dual-Band ADSB-B Receiver in a 472 equipped Carbon Cub with Skyview HDX.

I just stuck the Scout on the windshield and watched its output on an iPhone running ForeFlight.

The Scout really struggled while the 472 worked "normally". 472 was pulling in weather fine but dropping traffic and much slower to show ADS-OK compared to the 470. But the Scout never really completed weather download and never showed the traffic shown by the 472.

The Scout seemed to work ok on the ground, so I am guessing there is RF interference in the airplane impacting the Scout significantly and probably the 472 to some degree.

Forgot to add that in the same cockpit the Stratus works fine on the top of the glare shield.
« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2017 at 8:01pm by TurboPilot »  
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Reply #63 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 6:40am

RayInGA   Offline
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Is it possible ForeFlight was picking up weather via Wi-Fi or cellular rather than getting it from the Scout while on the ground?
 

Ray Eaker
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Dual Skyview 1000T with all available Dynon VFR goodies
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Reply #64 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 7:34am

TurboPilot   Offline
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RayInGA wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 6:40am:
Is it possible ForeFlight was picking up weather via Wi-Fi or cellular rather than getting it from the Scout while on the ground?


The iPhone was solidly locked on to the Scout WiFi when I tested it. Scout makes no attempt at any shielding. Looks like antenna and chips on a single board enclosed in plastic.
 
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Reply #65 - Aug 25th, 2017 at 12:07am

George K   Offline
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I lost a friend in a fatal midair collision that FLARM or ADSB could have prevented so my tolerance for the ADSB not working as intended is close to zero. Flight-following and eyeballs alone haven't been enough for thousands of collision victims... For me this is urgent because ADSB traffic is my best defense against some errors by controllers, other pilots and myself.
« Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2017 at 12:43am by George K »  

Glide
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Reply #66 - Aug 25th, 2017 at 5:45am

GalinHdz   Offline
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George K wrote on Aug 25th, 2017 at 12:07am:
I lost a friend in a fatal midair collision that FLARM or ADSB could have prevented so my tolerance for the ADSB not working as intended is close to zero. Flight-following and eyeballs alone haven't been enough for thousands of collision victims... For me this is urgent because ADSB traffic is my best defense against some errors by controllers, other pilots and myself.

I am sorry about the loss of your friend while flying but the only way to completely reduce the risk of a mid air is DON'T FLY. ADS-B is a risk reducing piece of equipment, not a risk eliminating one and like all equipment is subject to failure. "See and avoid" is still the best collision avoidance method in existence.

Flying, like everything in life, is an assumption of some level of risk. Each one of us decides what level of risk we are comfortable with then decide what to do. Unfortunately, if you fly long enough you will invariably loose a friend under possibly preventable circumstances as I also have. I have flown more than 25yrs without ADS-B so not having it now doesn't change my risk evaluation.  YMMV

Cool
« Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2017 at 5:48am by GalinHdz »  

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Reply #67 - Aug 25th, 2017 at 6:43am

airguy   Offline
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GalinHdz wrote on Aug 25th, 2017 at 5:45am:
I am sorry about the loss of your friend while flying but the only way to completely reduce the risk of a mid air is DON'T FLY. ADS-B is a risk reducing piece of equipment, not a risk eliminating one and like all equipment is subject to failure. "See and avoid" is still the best collision avoidance method in existence.


Agreed. It's sad when it happens, but not even TCAS can remove that risk - only reduce it. You can purchase whatever level of equipment your checkbook allows, to meet whatever level of risk you accept - but you'll never be able to completely eliminate it.
 
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Reply #68 - Aug 25th, 2017 at 12:22pm

RayInGA   Offline
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I still have the 470 box in my RV-7A and was surprised the other day to see a plane converging on me while very close to KSAV airspace. We both would have been on radar but he did not show up on my screen. Other targets were present, as was weather.

I suspect the other plane's transponder was in ground mode or turned off and he did not have ADS-B out. Lots of planes will continue to fly without ADS-B out well beyond the 2020 deadline along with no transponder or radio.

« Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2017 at 12:23pm by RayInGA »  

Ray Eaker
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Reply #69 - Aug 25th, 2017 at 12:36pm

ChiefPilot   Offline
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George K wrote on Aug 25th, 2017 at 12:07am:
I lost a friend in a fatal midair collision that FLARM or ADSB could have prevented so my tolerance for the ADSB not working as intended is close to zero. Flight-following and eyeballs alone haven't been enough for thousands of collision victims... For me this is urgent because ADSB traffic is my best defense against some errors by controllers, other pilots and myself.


The FAA itself says ADS-B is advisory in nature, and there is no guarantee that it will show you all traffic and avert a mid-air collision.

If it says something is there, something is there.   But relying on the reverse of that being true, when it most certainly is not, is suspect.
« Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2017 at 12:38pm by ChiefPilot »  
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Reply #70 - Aug 25th, 2017 at 2:27pm

N214ST   Offline
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George, I don't mean to be insensitive and am sorry for the loss of your friend, but your comment of "thousands of victims" is a bit misleading.  Statistically, there are about 10 -15 mid-air collisions in the US every year in general aviation (depending on database reviewed), which includes all plane types.  And, not all resulted in fatalities.  That means it would take 66 years to rack up 1000 fatalities.  You are 20 times more likely to die slipping in your bathtub (in the US) than having a mid-air collision.  My guess is that mid-air collisions will only be reduced by a percentage that will be a lot less than 100%, even with ADS-B.  The current rate listed by NTSB is .035 collisions per 100,000 flight hours.  Best to rely primarily on your eyes and the space between your ears!
« Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2017 at 2:28pm by N214ST »  
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Reply #71 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 7:10pm

Jrskygod   Offline
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Dynon why does my map have these diagonal lines??? Also in the second picture what does the blocked area in the lower left of the map tell me???? :-
« Last Edit: Aug 26th, 2017 at 7:12pm by Jrskygod »  
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Reply #72 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 9:15pm

Steve W.   Offline
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Looks like you have weather data turned on (check in the Map-Layers menu, IIRC), and the purle areas are those where no weather data has been received yet.
 
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Reply #73 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 9:54pm

Dynon Support   Offline
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What Steve said.
 

Please do not use Private Messaging on forum to contact. For private support:
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Reply #74 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 3:07pm

N214ST   Offline
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N214ST wrote on Aug 15th, 2017 at 6:35am:
Anyone having issues with ADS-B weather with the 472?  My original 470 seemed to work well; however, installed the 472 and flew the aircraft on first 472 flight from NC to FL last Monday.  Flew VFR, but the weather was pretty bad.  Didn't see any traffic, but with the bad weather, was not too surprised; cannot report on any traffic issues.  What was of concern was observing obvious nearby thunder storms west of  track, but no depiction showing on the weather overlay.  Any 472 weather experience from anyone?


Dynon Avionics wrote on Aug 15th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
N214ST - were you seeing the characteristic "purpleish" overlay on the map that depicts areas where weather wasn't being received?


Dynon Support: The plane flew yesterday in some pretty bad weather and the ADS-B weather seemed to work OK.  My buddy pilot saw a few traffic icons, but there wasn't much flying so he could not really compare any traffic inputs vs. flight following traffic reports.
 
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Reply #75 - Sep 2nd, 2017 at 8:30pm

Alexe   Offline
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Dynon,
The previously stated "week or so" has come and gone. Is Dynon any closer to a path forward to fix the -472?
Thanks,
Alex

 
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Reply #76 - Sep 4th, 2017 at 4:19pm

George K   Offline
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On my 472, things usually work fine for 25-30 minutes sometimes an hour and things go haywire. Restart and wait a minute or two and it works again. Buffer overruns?
« Last Edit: Sep 4th, 2017 at 4:19pm by George K »  

Glide
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Reply #77 - Sep 11th, 2017 at 9:08am

Jimmie   Offline
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I wanted to add another data point.
I have been seeing traffic disappear and and then a short time later reappear ,all while ADS-B OK displayed on local flights.
At the same time stratux and FlyQ on the ipad was showing the traffic most of which were mode C so I was getting the data from the ads-b broadcast.
Yesterday from southern California to New Mexico at 11500 feet with flight following and no drop outs.
Dynon was showing no radar for most of the trip.
I was still receiving weather updated but of course no traffic.
FlyQ was displaying traffic the whole time but I have no idea how many if any were mode c only.
 
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Reply #78 - Sep 11th, 2017 at 5:45pm

CGameProgrammer   Offline
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Is your antenna loose? Mine was; I had to replace it. On the outside of your aircraft, gently tug on the ADS-B in antenna and see if it slides around. It should be solid but mine just slid out.
 
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Reply #79 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 7:29am

Alexe   Offline
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Dynon,
Could we PLEASE get the current status on your progress resolving the -472 drop out issues? I posted the same question a week ago, but it was ignored. I'm getting frustrated, especially with the lack of communication on the current status.
Alex
 
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Reply #80 - Sep 13th, 2017 at 9:01am

RayInGA   Offline
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Alexe wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 7:29am:
Dynon,
Could we PLEASE get the current status on your progress resolving the -472 drop out issues? I posted the same question a week ago, but it was ignored. I'm getting frustrated, especially with the lack of communication on the current status.
Alex



Be patient Alex. No update here means they have no update to provide. I work on these types of problems on a daily basis and they can take a long time to solve. First step is to reliably reproduce the problem so there can be confidence in the solution.
 

Ray Eaker
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Dual Skyview 1000T with all available Dynon VFR goodies
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