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Dynon WAAS GPS (Read 1223 times)
Sep 20th, 2018 at 12:56pm

jay64   Offline
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Will Dynon introduce its own IFR GPS anytime soon?
 
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Reply #1 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 1:40pm

RayInGA   Offline
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This comes up on the forum often. IMO, they won't due to the extremely high cost (millions) of developing the software and database.

A better question, IMO, is when will the FAA relax the regulations around certifying IFR equipment such that more players can enter the field and help drive prices down with more competition.
 

Ray Eaker
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Reply #2 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 5:22pm

Garrett   Offline
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I would be nice if we had a Dynon integrated GPS navigator.
 
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Reply #3 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 6:33am

airguy   Offline
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Garrett wrote on Sep 20th, 2018 at 5:22pm:
I would be nice if we had a Dynon integrated GPS navigator.


It certainly would indeed. It occurs to me that Dynon has their label on nearly every component that belongs in an instrument panel EXCEPT that one, and it's a glaring omission. One can certainly hope that there is quiet work going on in a back corner that is not being talked about (yet).
 
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Reply #4 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 10:20am

dlloyd   Offline
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Maybe we should be wishing Trig would spend the millions and would be a seamless pairing with Skyview.
 
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Reply #5 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 4:41pm

Ricciardo   Offline
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Is it mandatory to have a certified GPS with the Dynon installation?  If you don't already have one, that will add another $10k to the $25k upgrade.
 
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Reply #6 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 11:41pm

jakej   Offline
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Only if you are going IFR (in my country) however if you want to just have ADSB OUT then you can comply without using an IFR navigator, just use a capable Gps antenna like the cost effective Dynon 2020 (using Dynon SV & Transponder) or other systems available on the market.
 
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Reply #7 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 4:36pm

airguy   Offline
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Ricciardo wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 4:41pm:
Is it mandatory to have a certified GPS with the Dynon installation? If you don't already have one, that will add another $10k to the $25k upgrade.


Only if you want to use it for IFR navigation. The current Dynon suite does not allow for IFR use, you need to have a certified IFR receiver. That means spending approximately one metric sh&t-ton of dollars on product testing, development, and documentation.

An older Garmin 430W will do just fine, and runs about $6500 used on the market today. That's what I'm using in my Vans RV9A.
« Last Edit: Sep 23rd, 2018 at 4:38pm by airguy »  
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Reply #8 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 8:41pm

Ricciardo   Offline
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The Uavionix adsb equipment just got STC for GA aircraft.  It contains a WAAS GPS.  The output can be displayed on other equipment.  Would this satisfy the requirement?
 
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Reply #9 - Sep 26th, 2018 at 4:48am

Garrett   Offline
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Ricciardo. The IFR navigator is for filing and flying under IFR rules and it contains  all departure, arrival, enroute, procedures and approaches with the capability to display vertical and horizontal guidance on a dedicated indicator and or the Dynon PFD. Its database must be updated monthly to legally use it. It is not required for a Dynon install only if you want to file fly /G.
 
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Reply #10 - Sep 26th, 2018 at 9:31am

RayInGA   Offline
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Ricciardo wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 8:41pm:
The Uavionix adsb equipment just got STC for GA aircraft. It contains a WAAS GPS. The output can be displayed on other equipment. Would this satisfy the requirement?


Adding to Garrett's response, the WAAS GPS source is a very small part of an approved IFR navigator. Every line of software code and the database structure must meet FAA, very demanding, requirements.
 

Ray Eaker
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Dual Skyview 1000T with all available Dynon VFR goodies
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Reply #11 - Sep 26th, 2018 at 4:47pm

Dynon Avionics   Offline
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What Garrett and Ray said. We actually have a "WAAS" GPS that's STC'd as part of the SkyView Certified product line - it's the same SV-GPS-2020 that you install for 2020 ADS-B Out compliance. As others have said, the actual GPS source alone is only a small part of the equation here.
 

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Reply #12 - Sep 29th, 2018 at 5:54am

gtae07   Offline
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Remember that there's also potential market to consider.

As everyone notes, the cost of developing a full IFR navigator involves not just developing an approved GPS receiver with appropriate fault warning, but also a full database structure, display of all that data, and showing that there won't be problems there either. That's very expensive.

Now, if you don't pursue full TSO approval, you have limited yourself to aircraft which don't need TSO approval--that is, E-AB aircraft that intend to fly IFR. That's a very small part of the market, in the grand scheme of things. Tie it into a specific EFIS package and your market just shrank a whole lot more.

Obtaining full TSO approval opens up your product to the certified world, which is an order of magnitude (at least) greater in potential market.

What's frustrating to us homebuilders is that all we're typically looking for is the IFR GPS portion. With advanced EFIS products like Skyview and others, we already have things like ADS-B traffic and weather, terrain, large moving maps, etc. Many of us "just" want an IFR GPS without all of the fancy features (like the GPS-400W). But the certified market, still often stuck with steam gauge panels and older nav equipment, is looking for the "most bang for the buck" solution, and that market wants something more than just IFR GPS. They want the terrain and ADS-B and all the other fancy features on a single big screen because for most, that's they only way they can fit it all on a panel at anything approaching reasonable cost--and they're a far bigger market than we are. Thus, all-in-one nav/com/GPS units with lots of features and big screens are what drive the market.


TL;DR: Under current rules it's not worth developing an IFR GPS unless you can sell lots of them to the certified market.
 
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Reply #13 - Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:50am

airguy   Offline
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gtae07 wrote on Sep 29th, 2018 at 5:54am:
What's frustrating to us homebuilders is that all we're typically looking for is the IFR GPS portion. With advanced EFIS products like Skyview and others, we already have things like ADS-B traffic and weather, terrain, large moving maps, etc. Many of us "just" want an IFR GPS without all of the fancy features (like the GPS-400W). But the certified market, still often stuck with steam gauge panels and older nav equipment, is looking for the "most bang for the buck" solution, and that market wants something more than just IFR GPS. They want the terrain and ADS-B and all the other fancy features on a single big screen because for most, that's they only way they can fit it all on a panel at anything approaching reasonable cost--and they're a far bigger market than we are. Thus, all-in-one nav/com/GPS units with lots of features and big screens are what drive the market.



I see this from a little different perspective - and I certainly hope Dynon is driving the ship this direction - and I'll say up front I have absolutely zero knowledge of what Dynon is doing here. With the STC to install the Skyview system in certificated aircraft, all the "other stuff" is available via that route - which leaves the path open to supply "just the IFR GPS" part as an add-on module similar to how Dynon has priced all their components, as a-la-carte.

That marketing approach would hit the steam-panel crowd just perfectly, an entire panel upgrade to the latest and greatest, and they can pick their functionality buffet-style with the main Skyview STC install, including the ADSB and IFR navigator (if or when that gets produced).

That still requires all the paper-chase for reliability and fault-tolerance, with the engineering behind it, which is the big-dollar portion that hurts.
« Last Edit: Oct 1st, 2018 at 6:55am by airguy »  
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Reply #14 - Oct 1st, 2018 at 1:09pm

Steve W.   Offline
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Go take a look at the regulatory requirements for an IFR GPS Navigator, starting with AC20-138D, including all of the TSOs that are required, and then ask yourself if you want Dynon focused on great features in a non-certified Skyview system, or you want them to spend time and money building a box to compete with Garmin, et al., for the certified stuff.

It's very expensive engineering, and I doubt one could make a good business case for them to enter that market, at least at this time.
 
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Reply #15 - Oct 2nd, 2018 at 12:57am

johnS   Offline
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Actually, I have a different opinion on the IFR navigator. My combination of Skyview and all its side components IS seamlessly integrated with a Garmin GTN 750. If you are not flying IFR, and currently rated, you will not fully appreciate the complexity of the  Garmin GTN series. I know all about the $$$$$$ considerations. I bit the bullet and have been pleased with the results for several years now. These garmin GTN series navigators are seriously elegant in their design. The financial drain to develope a competing navigator could seriously affect a company the size of Dynon. There is a reason why there are so few modern IFR navigators in the world market. If I were to fill my IFR garmin with all of its databases for the entire USA, obstacle, terrain, safe taxi, approach plates, the navigational, and frequency databases, it would cost me around $1200 per year. In real life, I keep the required navigational database, east of the Mississippi, up to date for approximately $350 per year. All the other database goodies are provided  by foreflight and Seattle Avionics for under $200 per year. This creates ample redundancy in onboard approach procedures. I would hate to see dynon tangle in this low volume segment of the market, and drain their resources away from the great job they are doing with their product line. IMHO 🤓
 
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